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Real 4th height numbers

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Real 4th height numbers

Postby Pam Ellwood on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 1:26 pm

As opposed to survey results.

AABA entries show just over 150 dogs. (Schedule says limited to 120.)

Both Standard and Large options are for dogs over 17 ins.

57 dogs are entered in Large (26in jumps)
17 in Standard (22in jumps) of which only 2 are not Elementary /Starter dogs.

I would speculate that the E/S entrants are likely to comprise some that do not yet have much experience (if any) at normal competition height - the sort that might enter AS at a KC show to start with.

Those figures don't seem to support the claims from the survey that around half of current Large agility dogs are on the small side (which may be the case) and that the handlers of those dogs will enter lower height classes when offered for the good of their dogs because they believe jumping 26in is detrimental to them. If they believe that and still enter at 26in even when it isn't necessary then, as Brenda said elsewhere, shame on them.

It would be interesting to compare entry breakdowns from similar independent shows - actual evidence not theoretical based on the type of survey that always contains a positive bias because people with an axe to grind are more likely to respond than those who are satisfied with the status quo.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Ulla Groos on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 2:43 pm

This only one show, one entry showing 4th height entry. I don't think it is representative for all over the UK. There are other shows with other figures.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Chris Garrett on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 2:44 pm

I have looked again at the survey questions and results and nowhere has it asked people if they would enter a lower height class when offered for the good of their dogs because they believe jumping 26in is detrimental to them. I am surprised that someone who likes to deal in facts has stated otherwise :winking: . Quoted from the Agilitynet survey results "Although we needed to ask owners if they were likely to choose to compete with their dogs in the proposed new category if it were introduced, we were not seeking views, opinions or approval/disapproval of the proposed new height category - just as factual a view as possible of the likely impact if it were introduced. It is important to recognise that owners who said they would choose to compete in a new height category if introduced were NOT expressing approval of the proposed new height."

I'm sure you've seen the actual figures from the series of TraVal independent shows covering the last two years, detailed in the useful information pack the 4th height supporters group have produced, there is also data from UKA? If you haven't got the pack, I asked for mine from this email address fourth_height@yahoo.co.uk

Hope that helps :flowers:
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Sue Fitton on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 2:57 pm

here are the large/standard entries from our unaffiliated show at the weekend:

advanced agility/jumping (grades 6/7)
large - 12
standard - 1

intermediate agility/jumping (grades 3-5)
large - 26
standard - 7

beginners agility/jumping (grades 1-3)
large 42
standard - 20

steeplechase (all grades)
large - 89
standard - 38

also bear in mind that a few handlers changed from large to standard on the day.

hope that helps!
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Pam Ellwood on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 3:08 pm

Ulla Groos wrote:This only one show, one entry showing 4th height entry. I don't think it is representative for all over the UK. There are other shows with other figures.


Which is why I said it would be interesting to compare others.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Pam Ellwood on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 3:10 pm

Sue Fitton wrote:here are the large/standard entries from our unaffiliated show at the weekend:

advanced agility/jumping (grades 6/7)
large - 12
standard - 1

intermediate agility/jumping (grades 3-5)
large - 26
standard - 7

beginners agility/jumping (grades 1-3)
large 42
standard - 20

steeplechase (all grades)
large - 89
standard - 38

also bear in mind that a few handlers changed from large to standard on the day.

hope that helps!


Thanks.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Jenny Willis on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 3:32 pm

If you look at the Bitz N Bobz ring plan it shows the following:

0 + 1 Large 18 Standard 12 (this is like anysize)
2 + 3 Large 34 Standard 5
4 - 7 Large 19 Standard 2
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Pam Ellwood on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 3:36 pm

Chris Garrett wrote:I have looked again at the survey questions and results and nowhere has it asked people if they would enter a lower height class when offered for the good of their dogs because they believe jumping 26in is detrimental to them.


No it didn't, but it's apparently a mainstay of the argument in favour of a 4th height that it is detrimental and that is certainly the impression the information pack tries to present.

And it does ask how many would enter KC if a 4th height was offered. Well here is somewhere where it is which makes the entry numbers of interest.

If it isn't detrimental to the well being of a significant number of dogs then I real struggle with understanding why all the fuss. Just because it offends some peoples' sense of symmetry in the increase of jump heights really isn't good enough.

I'm more interested in why people say what they do than what they say.

I'm sure you've seen the actual figures from the series of TraVal independent shows covering the last two years, detailed in the useful information pack the 4th height supporters group have produced


Is that Appendix B? I wasn't sure what it was supposed to represent as the heading is very vague. I read it as being composite figures extracted from a number of sources, not just one.

However, I do note that it also shows a wide disparity between Standard and Large entries which does cast doubt on the result of the survey on which Mandy relied to produce her suggested ring plan including a 4th height.

I'm assuming that Standard dogs could choose to enter Large at Traval?

UKA with all it's caveats and ifs and buts attached to the example given in Appendix D shows less of a disparity, but it still exists.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Pam Ellwood on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 3:37 pm

Jenny Willis wrote:If you look at the Bitz N Bobz ring plan it shows the following:

0 + 1 Large 18 Standard 12 (this is like anysize)
2 + 3 Large 34 Standard 5
4 - 7 Large 19 Standard 2


Thanks Jenny.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Brenda Tenten on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 4:13 pm

On a simplistic level, all these examples seem to demonstrate that it is the least experienced (?) dogs and handlers that opt for the intermediate height rather than the higher Grades. If the argument of 'health & welfare' was applied, I would have expected the split to be the same (ish) across all the Grades....perhaps even more in the higher Grades because these experienced dogs may have picked up injuries along the way, and the handlers tend to be more aware of the needs to safeguard their dogs with regard to agility, if only because they have mostly been doing agility longer than someone new to the sport.
BUT I do have a cold, so I could be completely misinterpreting it.... :no:
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Jan Stubbs on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 4:49 pm

In UKA I run my standard dogs at 26" because that is the height they have to jump when they are in KC and we mainly go to UKA to train for KC. If the KC height was set at standard then in UKA I would run them at standard for the same reason. They jump at the height they need to jump at in competition. I expect many people do the same.

Therefore if the KC height was to change then the entries for the standard height classes at UKA etc...will probably also change.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Hilary Dowsett on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 9:27 pm

As we can only get to one or occasionally two UKA shows a year my OH also runs his dog in the large instead of standard class as it's the height he has to do at KC shows. We know a couple of other people who do the same thing.
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Brenda Tenten on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 9:40 pm

Jan Stubbs wrote:In UKA I run my standard dogs at 26" because that is the height they have to jump when they are in KC and we mainly go to UKA to train for KC. If the KC height was set at standard then in UKA I would run them at standard for the same reason. They jump at the height they need to jump at in competition. I expect many people do the same.

Therefore if the KC height was to change then the entries for the standard height classes at UKA etc...will probably also change.

So you, and presumably the other higher grade people who do not opt for the intermediate height, do not want an intermediate height on health & welfare grounds, though there may be other grounds for them doing so? You, and others, maintain the normal competition height for your dogs even when a lower option is available because your dogs are fit and sound at that height?
Well, you wouldn't jump the normal height at all if that wasn't the case, would you, as I know how careful you are with the wellbeing of your dogs, how important it is to you, and presumably to the others too. Which is kind of what I was extrapolating from the way the figures panned out in the examples given. :flowers:
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Brenda Tenten on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 9:42 pm

Hilary Dowsett wrote:As we can only get to one or occasionally two UKA shows a year my OH also runs his dog in the large instead of standard class as it's the height he has to do at KC shows. We know a couple of other people who do the same thing.

But I am sure that he wouldn't do so if he felt that running the dog over 26" was at all detrimental to its health & wellbeing, would he? I can't imagine anyone doing that. :flowers:
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Re: Real 4th height numbers

Postby Ken Whittington on Tue 11 Dec, 2012 9:56 pm

Just been looking at entries for this show. Quite a few handlers with more than 1 dog entered have a dog entered at both heights.
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